What does it take to sail around the world — and stay in love with your partner? Liz Alden talks about how she and her husband circumnavigated the globe over four years, the places they loved, and how wanderlust and a love for the ocean is something that never leaves us.
Liz Alden is the author of the Love and Wanderlust series of romance books, as well as a travel writer. She circumnavigated the world over several years with her husband, which we’re talking about today.
- Planning to sail around the world as a couple
- Highlights and favorite places from the circumnavigation
- How romantic is it to be with a partner for so long on a small boat?
- The challenges of sailing
- Financing life at sea
- Wanderlust and love of the ocean
- Recommended travel + romance books
Transcript of the interview
Jo: Liz Alden is the author of the ‘Love and Wanderlust’ series of romance books, as well as a travel writer. She circumnavigated the world over several years with her husband, which we’re talking about today. Welcome, Liz.
Liz: Thank you, Jo.
Jo: I’m excited to talk about this. First up, tell us a bit more about your history with boats and the water.
Did you always want to sail around the world?
Liz: That’s an interesting question because the answer is no. I grew up around the water. My grandfather had a boat business, my dad had a boat business, my uncle had a sailboat, my stepdad had a sailboat. But I wasn’t as wildly into it, as one would think.
But then my dad took my husband for his first sail. And my husband was like, ‘Oh, man, this is really cool.’ And then he got on the internet, and he was looking around, and he was like, ‘People quit their jobs, and go sail around the world, this is something that we could actually do. So let’s do it.’
And then the timing kind of worked out for us, I was ready to transition out of running what had been my dad’s business. So I sold that company, and we bought our boat, and we took off sailing.
Jo: Wow, that’s so interesting. So your husband didn’t have any background, but he was the one who wanted to go?
Liz: Right. And in most sailing couples, it’s the opposite. It tends to be a male-dominated activity or sport. So a lot of the people we meet out here, it’s more of the man who has the background in sailing, and unfortunately, stereotypically, they usually have to convince their partner to go sailing. I didn’t instigate the conversation. But I was very gung ho about the idea of traveling around the world on a sailboat.
Jo: Because of all your skills. I’ve been wondering about this in terms of the love of the water and almost needing to be near the water. Do you think some people are almost born with a desire to be by water? Is that something you’ve noticed? Obviously, in your family, but in the people you meet.
Do people, when they’re away from the water, long to be back?
Liz: I think there’s just something so different about being on the water versus being on land. And I can understand certainly, having your feet on the ground, and like planting yourself to the ground.
But then there’s that something different about the way… not even the way the water looks, or the way the water feels, but just how you can tell that you’re near the water. And as a sailor who’s come into port, I know that it can be the opposite way too, like you can smell land when you’re approaching just like you can smell the ocean.
So it’s this all-sensory kind of thing. And it’s just two very different feelings for a fully encompassing experience.
Jo: I’ve only done a little bit of sailing, but I live near a canal and a river. And I know it’s different. I feel like I’m happiest when I walk near water. And it’s got a calming sense. But I have no desire to live on it like you do.
Liz: That’s fair. It’s not for everyone.
Jo: Let’s talk about planning the circumnavigation. Your husband said, ‘Right, well, let’s go.’ So what did you do, then? How do you figure all that stuff out?
Liz: The first step was to go boat shopping, which is an enormous challenge in itself that I think we had no idea what we’re getting into at the time. Now, seven years later, we can thankfully say that we really like our boat, and we’re very happy with it. She’s obviously been quite seaworthy for the past seven years, since we’ve made it all the way around the world. And she’s very comfortable.
She is a 44-foot Catamaran. [pics here] So while it’s smaller than most people’s houses or apartments; it is still very comfortable for a boat.
After you get the boat figured out, it’s actually surprising because a lot of people don’t realize how restricted route planning is for sailing. People just kind of think like, oh, well, could you be over in this place by this time? And we’re like, well, no, not really.
We are restricted by storm seasons. So there are certain parts of the world that we don’t want to be in, like hurricanes on the Caribbean, in the Atlantic. And then we’re also fairly restricted by the wind.
As sailors, we are basically tropical trade wind sailors.
So we’re looking for places in the world where the wind goes from east to west. And so that says to us, well, most of the time we’re traveling west, and when you’re doing a circumnavigation and you’re traveling west than, obviously, you’re going to whack into land at some point.
There are a few narrow places around the world where sailors congregate like the Panama Canal, for one. So the route planning is actually like, anybody who plans to circumnavigate is pretty much going the same route, which in itself is really interesting because you end up meeting the same people in one place, and then you connect with them again thousands of miles down the line because you’re all kind of going the same way.
Now a lot of people might sail from the Caribbean to New Zealand or Australia and call it quits. And so the Indian Ocean really thins out. But the route is fairly consistent, which is pretty surprising to a lot of people.
You don’t actually have this whole wide world to transverse, you have a typical route and people might think we’re crazy for moving on to a boat and traveling full time. But then we really think that people who go the outside-the-norm route are really crazy.
Jo: And, you’re a freelance travel writer, and there’s a big community isn’t there.
You can pretty much find out all the information about circumnavigation from the community who are already doing it.
Liz: Yes, exactly. There are so many people out there writing about it. And that was one of the things, like I said before, that my husband started finding people online, who were doing this and who were writing about it.
At the time that we started, there weren’t many YouTube channels that were documenting their adventures. So we were kind of early to the game in doing that. But now there are Youtube channels like crazy who are talking about sailing and going to interesting places. And, that’s really interesting, because it’s a whole additional depth level of researching and planning your own route is you get to see people and listen to them in a video and see what they’re experiencing in that, you know, additional dimension.
Our YouTube channel is called ‘Out Chasing Stars‘ as our Out Chasing Stars website as well. And of course, Facebook, and Instagram, and all that. So we have shared our entire circumnavigation in video on our YouTube.
Jo: That’s fantastic. So people can go and have a look. Let’s talk about the trip itself.
What were some of the highlights and the places that you still think about?
Liz: Our biggest geographic region that we absolutely fell in love with was the South Pacific. And so when I talk about our top three places, they are in the South Pacific.
French Polynesia is definitely one of the most amazing places we went to. And it has a special place in the heart of sailors because for someone who’s circumnavigating, their longest passage is going to be across the Pacific Ocean.
Our Pacific crossing was 19 days. And our first landfall was Fatu Hiva. In Fatu Hiva, you arrive, and it’s like this Jurassic monstrosity of an island. It’s all jungle. It’s all lush, and you feel like a dinosaur could step out.
Then you get the culture of the Marquesan people and the natural beauty of the water and the wildlife. And that is just, it’s unbeatable, I think, in terms of the location we’ve been to.
And then in the rest of French Polynesia, you have the Tuamotus Islands, which are your sandy tropical atolls with palm trees, and then the Society Islands like Bora Bora, and Tahiti, which everybody knows as the idyllic honeymoon vacation.
Further afield in the South Pacific, you get places like Tonga, Niue, Fiji, New Caledonia. And then New Zealand was an absolute highlight for us. The people are so friendly. It’s such an interesting country. Actually we bought a car, then traveled around the country, which was very easy to do.
Another one that really sticks out is the Panama Canal because it’s a bottleneck for sailors and it’s something that is such a unique experience to go into the canal with these huge cruise ships or cargo ships and your little sailboat, and you have usually more crew onboard than just you and your partner, and you have this marvel of engineering that you get to experience firsthand. It’s really fascinating.
Jo: It’s so funny because of course the open ocean is just completely different to the Panama Canal, which I’ve seen pictures of and seen on video and things. It’s not a small canal but there’s lots of things to bump into basically.
Liz: Yes, and then you’re dealing with the cruise ship behind you that’s running a bow thruster and your boat is moving and shaking and it’s just so bizarre, it’s a totally unique experience.
Jo: And the other boats going through there, they can be these huge container ships, right? Like a city.
Jo: You’re on this little catamaran. That’s kind of crazy.
Liz: The way you go through is you raft up with other boats your size. And so you’ve got three sailboats rafted together. And we all fit like underneath the bow of this giant cargo ship. It’s crazy.
Jo: That is mad. You mentioned there are other boats and also that people go the same way. I think in some people’s minds you’re all alone on the ocean. How much were you alone? Or were you with other people quite a lot?
Liz: When you’re out on the ocean, doing a passage like the 19-day one from the Galapagos to Fatu Hiva, like we did, we’re really not seeing anybody. So it is just the two of us for weeks. We might occasionally see a cargo ship or another sailboat, but it’s really few and far between, which is pretty amazing.
Jo: We’ve got to talk about the romance because you write the ‘Love and Wanderlust’ series of romance books.
Is it romantic, really, to be on a boat for so long in a partnership?
Liz: I think so. And my husband thinks so, which is great.
It is very interesting to spend so much time with someone. I read recently that the average person who has work and who has obligations, spends about two and a half hours a day with their partner, including the weekends. And then even when you retire, that only moves up to four hours a day.
We’re spending 24 hours a day, seven days a week for the past seven years together. And that’s really a lot of time with your partner. But I do find it romantic in a lot of ways, we have such a strong relationship. And we have all of these shared experiences together.
We always get to reminisce about these amazing things we’ve done together and also the hardships we’ve come out from a lot of hard things on the other side. And it gives us a lot of faith in our relationship and our love.
Jo: And so you mentioned there, the hardships.
What are some of the difficulties that you had on the journey?
Liz: The biggest difficulties usually center around the boat, in terms of mechanics. I think we’ve been very lucky in our boat. But there are times when something breaks. And that’s usually the most stressful.
I can think of a time when we were flying our spinnaker. I’m going to try not to get too technical, but basically, a line got twisted, and then a block broke. And we were about to chafe through a line and we’re panicking and we get the line on just in time. The old line snaps, our sail is basically fluttering 12 feet off the deck higher than it’s supposed to be.
We’ve got to figure out how to get the sail down in a way that’s not the normal way. And as we’re getting it down the wind catches it in a certain way. And next thing we know it’s overboard. Part of it’s overboard and it’s heavy and we’re getting pulled towards the lifelines and we need to worry about the line not getting caught in our propellers.
That’s an example of a very stressful time when things don’t go particularly right.
You have to react in the moment and figure out how to make it work. And it is life and death. So, it’s a lot of stress. It can be very hard.
Once you’ve gone through that, you have to try to overcome any residual fears, because you know things are going to happen again. But at the same time, you’ve overcome it, and you know how to handle a better scenario. Or how to handle the scenario better because you have that experience.
Jo: And that means, as you said, that’s a physically dangerous situation.
Jo: Obviously, there’re times when only one of you is awake. Is it lots of not boredom, but lots of calm, followed by acute fear for a short amount of time? And then back to calm again?
Liz: Yes. It is extreme stretches of boredom, sprinkled with moments of sheer terror.
Jo: And what does happen on those times when one of you is awake and the other one’s asleep? What do you do? Obviously, you’re looking at the ocean and things. Is that a time where you relish the time alone?
Liz: I think I do. I know my husband does. It’s a time to do the things that we want to do. And interestingly, most of the time this is without internet. So that might be hard to imagine for a lot of people as well. How do you entertain yourself for three weeks without internet?
For me, it’s been reading and I am a voracious reader, like a lot of romance readers are. I get this time to really plow through books and experience something new, which is interesting being in such a unique location that I’m in when I’m reading these books.
It can be a contemplative time. We stargaze, we watch the sunset together every night if there’s a good sunset.
I know my husband is usually really enjoying the sunrise and I’m asleep for that most of the time. But we do get a quiet calm that most people never experience, especially being away from the internet like that.
Jo: You’ve got this romance series, what did you see along the way in terms of different places and relationships that made you want to write the book? Because obviously, there was you and your husband and that’s just one way of being romantic. What else did you see in terms of romance?
Liz: We have met so many couples who met prior to or met as they were starting this adventure or in their adventure. So we have friends who met on the dock in the marina and one of them was getting ready to go sailing and invited the other one along.
We have friends who were cruising tropical islands and met one another at a bar. The person with the sailboat said, ‘Well, why don’t you come join me for a weekend?’ and then they fall in love with the boat and fall in love with the person.
It’s such an interesting mix of falling in love with multiple things at once because you have to really love the adventure. But then also really, really love the person that you’re going to commit to all this time to. So you’re taking this huge leap of faith in so many aspects of your life.
I thought all of that is really interesting, especially thinking about how you have an intensity in the relationship when you take that leap with someone. That’s a really interesting thing to write about as a romance author.
Jo: I totally agree. Even your covers are very evocative of places.
So you’re out and you’re sailing and how do you know when it’s time to stop, whether to stop in port for a bit longer?
Do you feel like right, it’s time to stop for a bit now, or how do you know when it’s time to keep going?
Liz: Usually, our hand is pretty forced by the weather. So like I mentioned earlier, there’s the storm season, so you have hurricane season in the Atlantic and then cyclone season in the South Pacific. And this is something about the circumnavigation that we didn’t fully understand before we took off on it.
You are always planning ahead to where you’re going to be for the next storm season. So it’s not quite as leisurely of sailing as I had expected. Once you cross the Pacific, the clock starts and you have a lot of miles to cover to get to New Zealand, where you’re going to be safe for cyclone season.
So there’s always that pressure to keep moving and keep ahead of the weather. And we’ve never left a place and said, ‘Oh, well, I did everything I wanted to here.’ There’s just no way to see it and do it all, which is amazing, considering how much time we spend in some places.
Jo: How long did it take to do the entire circumnavigation?
Liz: It was four years and three months.
Jo: Tell us where you are now, and how did you come to be back there?
Liz: Currently, I am in Norfolk, Virginia. Basically, this was a bit of a surprise. When COVID hit, we were finishing our circumnavigation, we actually had a party scheduled to cross our week with friends and family in the Caribbean. And that got canceled, we had to divert our course to Antigua, where we would be let in.
And then plans just as for every traveler, COVID washed plans out the window. We ended up coming up to the Chesapeake Bay and leaving the boat on the hard for a year. Well, we came back to the boat in May. We launched it in June. And we’ve been sailing the Chesapeake for the summer and the fall.
Now we are in Norfolk waiting to finish some boat projects and then we will head south to the Bahamas. Our intention is to do a bit more of a leisurely season in the Bahamas where we won’t have to stay ahead of that storm seasonality and just leisurely explore some islands.
Jo: I know some people might be thinking practically how does one support a living in this way?
Liz: Mostly savings. I like to say that I am a digital nomad, but I’m not great at getting paid a lot. I basically spend most of my time writing, I write my own novels. I write for sailing magazines. I write for various online publications.
My husband does investing, in addition to some entrepreneurial stuff that he works on. So we make some money here and there. But mostly we’ve saved up, and that’s how we support our lifestyle.
Jo: Obviously there’s buying the boat, which is expensive, I guess. But it doesn’t seem like once you’re going you can find cheaper places to moor. And it seems like maybe once you’re going it’s not so expensive. Would that be right?
Or is it a really expensive way to live?
Liz: I think it varies a lot. There are certainly people who cruise very cheaply. I know several people who talk about this publicly, and they might sail and spend less than $1,000 a month, which is incredibly cheap.
We are definitely not on that kind of a budget. We do though, have times like a lot of times in the South Pacific there just simply aren’t marinas to go to. So we anchor everywhere and that costs us nothing.
And then things like health care, as an American, that’s really quite an issue. But our health care costs are very low also because we’re young and in good health, but we have medical care expenses all over the world and it’s amazingly cheaper than we would have here in America.
We might be in places where there is no restaurant to eat out in and so we cook a lot on the boat and we do fish and we do all of these things that make life less expensive than it could be on land for sure.
Jo: I guess the message is there are a lot of different ways to live on a boat. I’ve been talking to quite a lot of sailors recently, so I’ve been learning a bit more. But when you had that year, obviously COVID shut everything down. Was it something where you felt like, you think we could carry on doing this, or were you just desperate to get back on the boat? What was it like to live back on land?
Liz: It was about 50-50. We’re looking forward to another season on the boat. Our plans are very fluid after that, we have none. But we did also enjoy spending some time on land, we kept it pretty nomadic, actually, we spent time with family. And then we picked three different places around the United States.
We stayed two months in each place. So we got to explore the country a little bit in a bit of a slow travel way, which definitely helped the wanderlust. We were exploring some pretty interesting places, and also doing some really fun things that we hadn’t been able to do in six years, like going skiing and stuff like that. So we found a way to make it work.
Jo: Oh, that’s interesting. I do love that you use ‘wanderlust’ in your series name. And I wondered, is it a feeling for you?
Do you think people like us are born with wanderlust? And will it ever go away?
Liz: I don’t know if we’re born with it, because, well, I’m sure some people are. But to me, I can pinpoint that my dad was very interested in travel. And he took us on some really interesting trips when I was younger. That infused my life with this idea of traveling a little bit.
I guess if you immerse yourself in certain corners of the digital world, then you get to see opportunities. It’s a bit like a fear of missing out; you see these amazing places and you think, ‘Oh, man, I want to get there.’
I can’t say that I would be unhappy living on land. But I would certainly want to travel a lot. I think it’s just an important part of my life. I’ve been super fortunate to be able to have done that for the past seven years.
Jo: It’s interesting, I almost feel like COVID has shrunk our world to a point where we all have existed within a much smaller boundary. Obviously, we haven’t been able to travel so much, and you’ve been moving around your country.
We haven’t been able to do that very much. We’ve had more restrictions than you have in the USA. But it almost feels like the comfort zone has shrunk. It’s become harder to leave for people to even leave their house, let alone leave the town or the state and kind of go somewhere else.
What are your tips on pushing that comfort zone again, on stepping out of what’s normal, or what’s become normal?
Liz: Interesting, I think, and let me just clarify, when we were traveling around the country, we spent two months in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and we didn’t eat out at all. We didn’t go to any of the museums. I was writing my books, but it was very much a time to be focused on that project.
And then we also did a lot of hiking. We were very concerned about exposing ourselves. So we found ways to keep that wanderlust going without risking ourselves. And I think that was a really nice thing to do. I love that when it’s possible, COVID has allowed us to change our behavior in certain ways. I think we’ve seen a lot more people become outdoorsy about it.
There’s more of the like staycation-ness going on when possible. For someone who’s traveled in a lot of faraway places, I do think that’s a really interesting turn of our lifestyle is how we’ve changed to get that mentality going a little bit.
I think this might be a, first of all, an American thing and also a bubble thing. I am ingrained in a community where people are traveling a lot and they always have been. And right or wrong, people are still out here doing that travel thing. I am not sure I have advice for anyone who’s scared to go back at it other than we just have to do what we’re comfortable with.
Jo: For me personally, my comfort zone was much bigger. I think what was comfortable before COVID has become more difficult because of the travel restrictions. Because of even here in Europe. Oh, and post-Brexit.
I’ve got post-Brexit, post-pandemic, it’s much harder to do the things that once were easy. And it’s revisiting the idea that it is worth the difficulties to go places. Like you on your sailing, there is a lot of difficulty with a boat.
Liz: About this time, last year, our plan had been to go to the Bahamas, and with COVID and everything, we looked at each other and we’re like, ‘We don’t have vaccines, and sure, there are people going to the Bahamas, but that’s not a risk that we’re willing to take at this time.’ So that’s when we did our exploring the country and living in different places in the United States.
It’s really interesting to talk about people’s risk tolerances in that kind of thing. And it is a bit controversial, but I’m glad that we sat out a year and waited for vaccines and said, ‘I think traveling to the Bahamas, right now,’ and this is the 2020 right now, ‘was too difficult.’ So we put it off and waited until we were ready to get moving.
Jo: I actually wonder whether international travelers are much more comfortable with vaccines. I went to school in Malawi, in Africa, and you have your vaccinations. Because if you’re traveling in a lot of countries in the world, you really want your vaccinations, you don’t have an issue with them.
I think that’s something that perhaps is interesting for travelers. We have a different perspective, perhaps on health, because in many places, it’s much more precarious.
Liz: Yes. And that was part of our transition onto the boat was, we went to the… I guess it was like an international health clinic or something. I don’t know. But we went and said, all right, these are the countries that we know we’re going to go to and here are some vaccines that have been recommended to us.
We want to make sure we have documentation for all of our vaccines, and then any boosters that we need, or even new vaccines based on the places that we’re going to, so we got the rabies vaccine, and hardly anybody has the rabies vaccine around here. But when you’re going to places where rabies can be prevalent, like Southeast Asia, load me up with the rabies vaccine. It is a problem if you get bit and contract rabies. Oh, boy.
Jo: Exactly. I think it’s just such an interesting perspective. Fear of getting sick is something that does stop people traveling. Obviously, there’s seasickness, which is not so much catching as potential for anyone. There’s always issues aren’t there, there are always going to be problems. But travel to me and obviously to you is still worthwhile.
You mentioned people’s changing behavior.
By seeing a lot of places, did you see some of the impacts of climate change? And is that something that you think about on the boat?
Liz: Absolutely. I want to say on the ground, but it’s more like on the water experiences where we’ve seen what’s happening out there.
We sailed near, or perhaps even in the Pacific Garbage Patch. And we have been in places where the plastics and trash are overwhelming in the water. We’ve been in places where overfishing is so bad, the locals are trying to sell us tiny fish to eat even though they need to be basically imposing size restrictions on what they catch because there’s not conservation efforts being put in place for them. Because they have to feed their family.
It’s really harrowing to see the kind of changes that are affecting the ocean. We have been in situations where our props have gotten caught on ghost nets, or we’ve seen abandoned fishing devices. It’s heartbreaking to see.
For it to interfere with our ability to cruise, never mind the environmental impact that it has in the way we’re seeing this destroyed environment around us is really bad. That was one of the hardest things about Southeast Asia. For me, I was really excited to go, but the environmental tragedies that are happening there really opened my eyes to a lot of difficulties that we hadn’t seen before.
Jo: But in a way, it’s important to see those places as well as the sorts of beautiful Marquesas and all of that. It’s the reality of the world, isn’t it?
Liz: It is. And I’m glad we saw those things. We had those experiences to influence us for the rest of our lives and be more conscious of the decisions that we make.
Jo: I think that’s the thing. There is this issue in the travel industry and those of us who love traveling, which is should we be traveling, but as you say, it’s more about being aware and being mindful and protecting the things we love. And sometimes you don’t know what you love until you go and see it, I feel.
Liz: Yes, absolutely.
Jo: Maybe one of your romance novels can be like an eco-warrior cleans up the Pacific Garbage Patch romance.
Liz: I have thought on doing something like that. I’ve met plenty of people who are doing interesting things in conservation, and environmentalism. So we’ll see. Thanks for the future book ideas.
Jo: Oh, well, it’s very romantic to be saving the dolphins. That’s fantastic. So of course, this is The Books and Travel Podcast.
What are a few books you recommend about sailing or travel? Or any romance travel books, of course?
Liz: For sailing books, this is interesting, because I actually just finished a couple days ago, a book called Love with a Chance of Drowning. And I believe the author’s name is Torre DeRoche.
And it’s so interesting, because the book is shockingly similar to my first novel, in that an Australian girl comes to the Americas and meets a sailor and crosses the Pacific with him and falls in love, which is the plot of my novel The Hitchhiker in Panama.
Love with a Chance of Drowning is a memoir. And it was a really interesting look at one kind of person that decides that they want to go do this voyage, the kind that we did, and the difficulties they encountered and their experiences were different from ours in some ways but very similar to ours in others. I thought the book was funny. As a sailor, it was wonderful to see Torre’s growth from city girl to a hearty, salty sailor.
Another great memoir is An Embarrassment of Mangoes by Ann Vanderhoof. And that is set in the Caribbean. And it’s a combination of exploration of the Caribbean Islands and recipes. So that’s a fun read to explore like one specific area of the world.
Beyond non-fiction, the romance books that I’ve read, a couple of fun ones, there is Private Charter by N.R. Walker, which is a gay romance taking place in Australia in the Whitsundays, which is a nice steamy read.
Trish Doller is a friend of mine and she wrote a book called Float Plan, which is another romance novel and Trish also lives on a sailboat. We haven’t had the chance to meet in person but we’re in communities together for sailors who write and that’s a lot of fun. She has said some very nice things about my novels. Those are some good books to get started with sailing romance and sailing memoirs and really get a taste for the variety.
With your books, if people want to start with them which one should they start with?
Liz: I have a free prequel short story called The Night in Lovers Bay, and that is set in Antigua. It is a steamy romance. It’s available on my website or on any retailer.
That leads to the rest of the ‘Love and Wanderlust’ series, which is three novels right now. The Hitchhiker in Panama, The Sailor in Polynesia, and The Second Chance in the Mediterranean.
All three of those books are sailing-related. So the first two are Norwegian brothers and the women that they meet. And then the third one is a superyacht crew on a sailing yacht in the Mediterranean.
Jo: Where can people find you and your books online?
Liz: My website is lizalden.com. And my books are available on all retailers and I am on Instagram and Facebook and have a fun newsletter that goes out once a week and I always share a picture with whatever location I’m in, and right now it’s dreaming of the Caribbean.
Jo: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Liz. That was great.
Liz: Thanks, Jo. It was a lot of fun.